My SQ2 Series Kit

[James Fullier III]

The most representative sounds from Sonor shells I have heard on video are NOT close mic'd. Recording with a phone or an overhead mic is what will reveal it IMO.. but if someone is the type of person that likes muted drums.. always has double ply heads and maybe putting those gel things on the heads and are obsessed with low end from the high toms.. I always say why not go for a cheaper brand ?

I can hear the Sonor sound in these.. however you won't hear much on laptop speakers or a phone LOL .

[tcbetka]

I think it depends upon what you're going to use the drums for, in terms of how you should listen to them to judge how they sound. For instance, if you plan to play live in a situation where there is no sound reinforcement, then listen to the drums that way...if you can. Find demo videos (or go play them) that feature the drums in THAT scenario.

On the other hand, if you're buying a set of "studio" drums for recording, then you need to know how they sound under similar conditions to how you'll be recording them. I mean, if I'm buying a $7500 set of birch SQ2 shells to record with, the last thing I want to do is to have to trigger them into Superior Drummer, because they sound like crap through studio mics.

Just my two cents, but it's never just as simple as saying "You need to listen to them through one overhead mic, facing north with one foot off the ground, while singing the national anthem." You get the point.

Listen to the drums in as close a configuration and environment as you can fine, that emulates your use-case. Otherwise it's just a crap shoot for the most part. I've owned like 6 or 7 kits now that cost more than $7500...and there weren't many that sounded in person the way the demo videos did on YouTube.

[James Fullier III]

Nobody was saying someone has to have this over there and point this and over here and put that etc.. LOL.. My point was I have never heard them close mic'd where I can definitively say that there is an unmistakable Sonor sound however I have definitely heard the sound with overheads or a phone.

[tcbetka]

Roger that.

For the record though--I don't necessarily think that Sonor shells are inherently better than ALL other brands. They certainly build a GREAT shell, no doubt. So does Pearl. So does Tama. So does <insert_your_favorite_brand_here>. That said, I think people buy Sonor drums for a reason--for their own reason(s). For me, these drums have been on some (many) of the most memorable and influential musical performances I've heard in my 60 trips around the sun. But I certainly have other "favorite" drummers who didn't play Sonor: Simon Phillips (Tama), Carlos Vega (Gretsch/DW), Jeff Porcaro (Pearl), Steve Gadd (Yamaha). Ectera, ecetera. That said, Gretsch fanatics make the same claim about Gretsch drums: "That great Gretsch sound." Yeah sure--they sound great, but for MANY years they were built with terrible quality. But they sounded great. But Sonor drums SOUND great, and are BUILT great. A definite plus.

My point? I think your ear hears what it (or your brain) wants to hear--and ultimately there's more to making a drum-purchase decision than just the sound.

The reality of this is that people spend lots of time studying various drums in whatever means they can--because the vast majority of us just can't check out a DCP showroom to A:B fifty different kits. It's just not feasible. So you scour YouTube, Facebook or Instagram for whatever you can find that lets you hear what you need/want to hear in the drums you're potentially interested in...whether that's real or imagined, I don't know. I'm as guilty of it as the next guy is. But let's not kid ourselves here--the average listener isn't going to hear the subtle little nuances that we drummers may (or may not) actually hear. If your ear can pick out a Sonor shell in a blind listening test, then more power to you. I'm not sure mine can anymore, and maybe they never could, I dunno. Way too many variables involved, and they're hardly ever controlled. Maybe if all drums were identical in size, depth, head choice and tuning...you might stand a chance. So until you show me a spectral analysis containing waveforms that are objectively different in Sonor vs other shells, I just don't believe these drums have something that others do not. But I still choose to buy Sonor, period. We all do (apparently), otherwise we wouldn't be here.

[Jules]

Roger that.

For the record though--I don't necessarily think that Sonor shells are inherently better than ALL other brands. They certainly build a GREAT shell, no doubt. So does Pearl. So does Tama. So does <insert_your_favorite_brand_here>. That said, I think people buy Sonor drums for a reason--for their own reason(s). For me, these drums have been on some (many) of the most memorable and influential musical performances I've heard in my 60 trips around the sun. But I certainly have other "favorite" drummers who didn't play Sonor: Simon Phillips (Tama), Carlos Vega (Gretsch/DW), Jeff Porcaro (Pearl), Steve Gadd (Yamaha). Ectera, ecetera. That said, Gretsch fanatics make the same claim about Gretsch drums: "That great Gretsch sound." Yeah sure--they sound great, but for MANY years they were built with terrible quality. But they sounded great. But Sonor drums SOUND great, and are BUILT great. A definite plus.

My point? I think your ear hears what it (or your brain) wants to hear--and ultimately there's more to making a drum-purchase decision than just the sound.

The reality of this is that people spend lots of time studying various drums in whatever means they can--because the vast majority of us just can't check out a DCP showroom to A:B fifty different kits. It's just not feasible. So you scour YouTube, Facebook or Instagram for whatever you can find that lets you hear what you need/want to hear in the drums you're potentially interested in...whether that's real or imagined, I don't know. I'm as guilty of it as the next guy is. But let's not kid ourselves here--the average listener isn't going to hear the subtle little nuances that we drummers may (or may not) actually hear. If your ear can pick out a Sonor shell in a blind listening test, then more power to you. I'm not sure mine can anymore, and maybe they never could, I dunno. Way too many variables involved, and they're hardly ever controlled. Maybe if all drums were identical in size, depth, head choice and tuning...you might stand a chance. So until you show me a spectral analysis containing waveforms that are objectively different in Sonor vs other shells, I just don't believe these drums have something that others do not. But I still choose to buy Sonor, period. We all do (apparently), otherwise we wouldn't be here.

Things that I think are factors in Sonor's shell making process that DOES produce a better quality shell than others (referring specifically to German made shells:

Sonor's proprietary glue. (You aren't going to see it on a spectrograph, but sometimes small nuances add up to a major impact.

Sonor's shell making process. When the shell dies clamp down, there is substantial, even pressure around the entire shell. Watch some/most other manufacturer's videos and they have a core that expands and when it in full effect, there are gaps around the inner section of shell. SO you have several places in which the pressure on the shell is not as consistent.

This is probably less true now, but in years past many companies cut the plies pretty close and filled the gaps with putty. Sonor's precision didn't require it.

Sonor's undersized shells have 3 marked differences over shells that aren't undersized. 1) They are more tympanic which IS something you can hear. 2) They tune easier. 3) The heads rebound better.

I think that if you listen to Styx live from last year with the Pearl's and this year with the Sonor's you should (and most do) hear the difference.

AS to average people not being able to hear the difference... I can go along with that. But, for many, part of our craft is drawing out the best we can from the gear available to us. You could trigger the drums live and few in the crowd would notice, and less would care. But, for discerning people who would spend the money to buy the quality of gear we do, it's not about getting by with something to appease the audience.

Here is a perfect example of a band going to great pains for a sound that many others would take for granted. In contract, Def Leppard ditched guitar amps several tours ago and all of their sounds are programmed into modelers built by Fractal. Fractals themselves are high quality units and replicate the sounds originated by old school amplification. But, to a band like AC/DC, it's better to have a trailer full of Marshalls, and a full time AMP guy doing nothing but keeping the amps going the entire tour. Yeah, they could buy up a full line of Fractals and fool the vast majority of the crowd. But AC/DC would know the difference. And there IS one. And it is the cumulative result of all the details - even the small ones.

[tcbetka]

Yeah, I respectfully DISagree on your assertion that Sonor's press process is better than anyone elses. Come on, man...how would we ever hope to prove that? According to Sonor it might be, but seriously?!? It's like these people think they invented the question mark or something.

Hey look, Sonor makes a FANTASTIC product. We all agree on that. The shells sound GREAT and the drum quality is amazing. Coupled with some INCREDIBLE finishes, they're hard to beat IMHO (no pun intended). But that's a subjective argument though, right? When you think about it though--there are a bunch of other drum companies that produce drum shells that 1) sound incredible, 2) don't delaminate and 3) use their own lamination/gluing/pressing process. And they've been in business a long time as well. Maybe not 150 years, but certainly decade upon decade. And I bet if you asked all of them, their process is "the best" too...lol.

I submit to you that marketing speak is like smelling farts: Everybody likes their own brand the best.

[Jules]

Disagree all you want to. I think that it all adds up to a better product. Even during times of playing other brands (Ludwig, Gretsch, Tama, et al) I still don't think they have the same attention to detail. You don't have to buy into it, and my position isn't eating someone's marketing crap. I have watched lots of videos of how different companies do what they do, and I have owned LOTS of gear over 40 years and I always come back to Sonor for the same reason.

[James Fullier III]

Yes Sonor's shell is unique and probably the most thoughtful ply shell from a historical perspective. They are 3/4 Vertical oriented plies which result in a wider tuning range IMO as well as a stronger shell.. and also they are formed with no internal pressure at all in the mould which is the only ply shell on the planet without internal pressure afaik. Most companies would probably claim this is not an option.. or basically you need the internal pressure for this or that which they all utilize by the way. ... Not with Sonor's moulds. Next of course add in the undersizing and whatever adhesive they use plus the very sharp 45.

I have always believed John Good got his ply orientation experiment idea's from secretly checking out Sonor shells. He got the initial idea from somewhere.. Also .. what drum company was he gazing at to start doing special veneers long ago ?

[tcbetka]

Disagree all you want to. I think that it all adds up to a better product. Even during times of playing other brands (Ludwig, Gretsch, Tama, et al) I still don't think they have the same attention to detail. You don't have to buy into it, and my position isn't eating someone's marketing crap. I have watched lots of videos of how different companies do what they do, and I have owned LOTS of gear over 40 years and I always come back to Sonor for the same reason.

We're talking about two different things Jules: Attention to detail and the shell pressing process Sonor uses. I agree that Sonor has great attention to detail--very typical for the German people, to their credit. They are tremendously detail-oriented, and we Americans would do well to pay attention to how they do things. So in that sense, I agree that Sonor is above the typical drum company. Johnny Craviotto was like that too--but I don't know much about the current iteration fo the company, since Johnny passed. A tragedy for the drum world, to be sure.

My point was more directed towards the shell pressing process that Sonor uses. Every plywood-shelled drum company has a way of doing it, and while Sonor's certainly works for Sonor...Tama's works for Tama, and Pearl's works for Pearl (etc). I was always super impressed by the older Tama Star Classic drums, especially the birch. A great friend of mine has a kit--and those drums are outstanding. The shells are very thin. Wow--thin, birch shells? Yes please. But the point here is that when you're making shells like that, your shell pressing process better be on-point...and Tama's is (or at least was when they made that set of drums).

[tcbetka]

Yes Sonor's shell is unique and probably the most thoughtful ply shell from a historical perspective. They are 3/4 Vertical oriented plies which result in a wider tuning range IMO as well as a stronger shell.. and also they are formed with no internal pressure at all in the mould which is the only ply shell on the planet without internal pressure afaik. Most companies would probably claim this is not an option.. or basically you need the internal pressure for this or that which they all utilize by the way. ... Not with Sonor's moulds. Next of course add in the undersizing and whatever adhesive they use plus the very sharp 45.

I have always believed John Good got his ply orientation experiment idea's from secretly checking out Sonor shells. He got the initial idea from somewhere.. Also .. what drum company was he gazing at to start doing special veneers long ago ?

I was just going to say that! DW does a very similar thing with their shells now, and I've heard people rave about the sound. Personally I've never even seen a set of those shells, much less played them...so I cannot say.

I will say that I was premature to discount the undersize thing though--I think that's a great idea. Gretsch could take a lesson from Sonor on that, as you sometimes need a shoehorn to change heads on some of those older Gretsch kits.